About me
G’DAY MATE!
I am a student doctor / medical student, slogging it out at Monash University, Melbourne.
Since Feb 2006 I started a 5-year Bachelor of Medicine / Bachelor of Surgery (MBBS) course. This course has a curriculum that is designed as an integrated structure incorporating four themes, within which semester long units are taught by staff from a range of departments across the faculty, in an interdisciplinary fashion.
Therefore it seems a little ironic that prior to this, i was a tank platoon commander / tank officer in an active Armour Battalion, with the Singapore Armed Forces, preparing for a hypothetical & much-unwanted war with our neighbours should diplomacy and deterrence fail. Indeed, defending the Lion City was something i took pride in, and this 2 year experience has definitely led to a surge in patriotism and sense of belonging to my home country, Singapore.
Other than medicine, interests that help maintain some form of sanity in me are: the Reformed Christian Faith, distance running and current affairs. (I was invited to be a writer at The Online Citizen recently)
I was a US Army officer back in the 1980’s. Reagan was President of the US and no one messed with us ( pesky terrorist dictators, a la Qaddadi and Arafat aside ) so I mostly played golf.
I also believe the military is good experience. We have too many people for conscription in the US but I think a lot more people would benefit from it if they volunteered.
You learned to cause wounds, now you learn to fix them. I’d say that’s karma.
Thanks for your comment, Cash. I believe the military experience has taught many Singaporean conscripts valuable life lessons as well. Not to forget the friendships forged through thick and thin during training and tough times.
I guess i’m pretty similar. Singapore’s deterrence policy has ensured that we have not engaged in war with any of our neigbours as yet. Our operations are mainly peace-keeping in Aceh, or relief missions, like during the massive tsunami back in Dec 2004.
hi, i came across your blog thru a series of mouse clicks. not sure if this is an appropriate place to ask but anyway im a jc student from singapore and medicine is one of the university courses that i am interested in pursuing. i understand that local competition is aggressive and therefore am also considering overseas studies as one of my options. australia seems to be a practical option (it’s close to singapore and fees aren’t as exorbitant as that in the US or UK) so i would like to hear learn more. could u enlighten me on the level of competition of entering a typical australian medical school as well as the expenses that one would expect to incur from studying there?
thanks in advance
it is definitely cheaper AND nearer to study in australia as compared to uk or us. as for medicine, i would say go for australia instead of uk. us is graduate entry and much longer.
read the following post and see how i came to a decision for studying at monash instead of uk.
http://jeffreyleow.wordpress.com/2006/12/04/a-healer-not-just-a-doctor/
as for the level of competition, ever since the Singapore Medical Council has opened up the number of registrable medical degrees, many students have been flocking to Down Under for obvious reasons. We have about 20 + Singaporean students for my year (year 2) and about the same or slighty more for year 1/2007. I guess your academic results has to be great, at least 3As or 4. Your CCA record and genuine interest and conviction for studying medicine must be strong as well.
Hope this helps.
oh wow that was a really efficient reply! thanks!
i actually see studying in australia as a practical choice and not one of interest (no offence here!). i would much prefer to study in the UK in one of the cities where pull factors include the cosmopolitan nature, the buzz of a global city, and proximity to europe! but University of Liverpool visited my school recently and broke the bad news of the high cost of living and study there plus the great competition faced to enter their medical sch (which according to the representative was the same everywhere in the UK). So going to the UK definitely defeats my purpose of an overseas studies.
So basically, australia’s the best alternative now.
What i’m actually concerned about is the application process. My school seems to only provide UK/US studies information.
well it seems like u think australia has not cosmopolitan city? and sydney melbourne not being a global city? hello?
melbourne is the 2nd most livable city in the world. losing out to vancouver i think on transport. which i think isn’t that bad.
and, after 5 years, ure gonna be a doctor as well. u get to practise, do your internship and get registered to a medical council.. wads e big hoo ha.
hey there.
U got really interesting stuff here in your blog that i hope i have one right now. hehe
well, i was browsing around finding some information about current monash med students feedback on the school and found your blog. And, i would really be glad if you would share with me what’s life there in melbourne, and what is it that you like most about going to monash?(bear in mind i havent really read all your blog entries.. ;o) )
i’m actually applying for monash and will be having an interview with the school somewhere next week, so wish me luck! oh, and it would be reallllly great if you could share some of your interview experience. i bet it will definitely be handy!
n, thanks in advance! take care then.
Hi.
What subject would be doing?
Life in melbourne is great. Prices for food are steep esp if you are comparing it with that in Malaysia. A meal could well cost you 8 AUD to 20 AUD. Cooking is much preferred as a student since it saves you quite a bit.
Interview? mine was for medicine, so it was pretty standard, like why medicine. they asked me about my family background as well, and ask me to talk more about my past in school, etc. they let you boast. just do. and some scenario questions. i got sth like, what would you as a health minister do to tackle the problem of breast cancer. medical interview is not as daunting as it seems. they want to see your strengths, so talk about them if you can in a humble way. they want to see genuine interest.
oh i’m going to take medicine. so, if i get in, i would be your junior then. ;o) but it’s only an IF (got to be aware of the reality bites) hehe..
so, they really let you boast about yourself huh? well, got to start finding the right words then. I have a thing about boasting myself that i did quite dissatisfiedly( i dont want to use badly coz i am still rooting for it) in my RCSI interview.
A real big thanks for sharing some info with me! I really appreciate it. Thanks a lot.
btw, which campus are you in? I’m under MARA here in Malaysia and a friend told me that my sponsor only send students to Clayton. So are you in Clayton? ;o)
ok you’re in Clayton. Just caught that in your blog. So, how’s life in Clayton basically? Oh and what the 4 themes actually are like? i mean how does it goes along ur academic year and so far how do you find it?
sorry if i’m asking too much but i’m trying my best here not to ask too many Qs.
thanks.
If you visited the Monash Medicine website they give you a pretty accurate overview of our 5 year MBBS course structure. Make sure you know what you’re getting yourself into - medicine as a career, before diving into the preparation for interview.
hi u sounded offended in one of your replies to my comment that i preferred the UK to australia. sorry if i did offend you. but i’d like to clarify certain things.
1) there is an apparently tacit assumption that i made about australia not being cosmopolitan. i acknowledge that australia is cosmopolitan. what i was actually suggesting was that the UK was more cosmopolitan than australia. however, i should say that in comparing the UK (as a whole) to australia (as a whole), i made a mistake because the the extent of cosmopolitanism differs from city to city. some australian cities are more cosmopolitan than some cities in the UK, and vice versa. my view that the UK is more cosmopolitan than australia collectively speaking stems from that the UK is seemingly more recognised as a cosmopolitan hub than australia.
2) im attracted to the UK because of the excitement that its strong cosmopolitan nature gives and the fact that it is close to many other European countries who foreignness is a novelty for me. I don’t really care if a place is more “livable”than another.
3) “and, after 5 years, ure gonna be a doctor as well. u get to practise, do your internship and get registered to a medical council.. wads e big hoo ha.”
i disagree. while the ultimate objective is to get you qualified as a doctor, it is not the only thing that matters a lot. Since going overseas to study is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity for many, one might as well make use of his overseas stint to experience living in the country he is interested in experiencing.
But i guess everything is a matter of preference.
hi “noname”
nah im not offended. i guess i was just trying to give you an alternative perspective to your current views.
the training you get is probably not going to differ much. ultimately the onus is on the medical student to learn as much as he/she can from whatever resources are provided by the medical school.
good luck in ur A levels, and your application. as i mentioned, do go for some hospital attachments to get an insight. speak to some house officers or medical officers and ask them how life in medicine is, and how it turned out to be different from what they used to think it was. i am also just finding out.
Hey there,
You’ve got an awesome blog that inspires me to study in medicine. Well, if I have the chance.
I’ve got questions regarding the medicine education, and hopefully you’ll help me to clear my doubts.
1)How do you know if this medicine line is for you?
2)Is medicine for people who is smart only?
3) And, is medicine hard?
I’ve always wanted to be a doctor when I was young but I gave up this dream when I didn’t do well in my O’ level. I went to engineering instead, in polytechnic. But when I started Bachelor of engineering in Australia, I sort of realized that this wasn’t what I wanted. I mean my interest is not there.
I want to deal with people and their problems. I want to contribute to the community. Then my dream came back. I think I want to pursue medicine again. But almost everyone in my family disagreed with me. They said, doctor is someone who is called by God. And it is only for those who always demonstrate excellence academically. And it is through passion and attitude that hardship would be passed.
I don’t want to make any hasty decision but I don’t want to give up this dream again either. I’ve been praying for God’s will but seems like He never responded to me about this.
Did you receive God’s calling for you to choose this path? And how do you know God’s will because I’m so confused right now.
Sorry for this trouble, it’s just that I thought it would be wise to seek some medical student’s counsel.
Thanks
sorry it took me such a looonngg time to say thanks.. well, as for the interview, i’m just pressing my luck! ;o)
anyway, all the best in life~
Hi, I was wondering .. so what happens after you finish studying medicine @ australia as an international student? How likely is it that you fail to gain a place as an intern in an australian hospital? It just worries me; all universities state ‘international students will not be guaranteed a place in internship at a local hospital’.. thanks!
Hi crystal.
from what i heard from my seniors, it is not that difficult to get an intern place. i heard that to get a place in the big melbourne city hospitals will be very hard, say only 1 or 2, perhaps those who got 1st class honours. definitely can get a job in Monash Medical Centre, Clayton, which is quite a big hospital, just like TTSH or SGH in Singapore, or other hospitals in Melbourne but not in the city center itself.
hi genie. i am so sorry for this late reply.
i would suggest u give me an email
check out http://jeffreyleow.wordpress.com/contact-me/
and i ll gladly reply you my personal thoughts on this issue.
thanks for asking, always glad to help.
Hi, Jeffrey I’ve just emailed you. Not sure if I got it rite but is it _____ ??
Hope it’s rite
Genie
My 2 cents on medicine & studying medicine (esp. in Australia)
Make no mistake about it, Medicine is an elite course that upon graduation, almost guarantees economic security & good employment (at least it did for the last 100 years of organised medicine). Now you know why everyone knows, minimally, a relative or two who desperately want their kid(s) to become a doctor (or at least, marry one).
Suffice to say, every year there are hundreds of thousands of medical aspirants though there is only a small fraction actually possessing the right mix of qualifiers (READ: academic qualities/connections/finances). Therefore, the level of competition is next to impossible and no room for 2nd chances. If you had ever screwed up in your academic history or are not in the top 5% of your class consistently, YOU WON’T even get to “see the door” to the medical faculty unless you have deep pockets (even then, this is not always successful). These are harsh facts about *trying* to get into medical school.
In Australia, for several years Australian-born Asian (Chinese & Indian) students dominated with super high-school results & were overrepresented in Medical & Dental Schools. This happened so much so that the angmoh Australians decided to social-engineer School entry standards that all but removed the academic advantage of high achieving Asian medical school applicants. The angmohs incorporated a battery of IQ-type tests & “touchy-feely” interviews to select applicants. You can guess how these high-achieving, booksmart Asian medical school applicants fared, particularly, with the face-to-face interviews. The medical school entrant demographics was finally “rebalanced” and as they say, the rest is history. Nowadays, there is an increasing number of frustrated academically gifted medical school rejects doing Pharmacy & other quasi-medical courses.
If you are a Singaporean and can’t get into a foreign medical school, you are not likely to ever be a doctor. Having the “calling in life” notwithstanding because every *one* of the hundreds of thousands do too. Just like you. Getting into Medical School these days has become a very dehumanising process.
HI! Let me work in your clinic next time, with my sister. Thanks!
Haha.
Hey! I was just looking at ur blog…and im applying to Monash to study medicine as well. Applied to NUS but din get in..so Monash is my next alternative. Could u just tell me more about the school, and what it’s like studying there? Is it very stressful and how are the lessons like? Also, i will be having my interview next week, and i read from the website that we will have to ‘de-technicalise’ some scientific concepts. Could u give me an idea as to what it’s like?
Oh and i was from VJC, so i’m a fellow Victorian! Yeah! Nil Sine Labore!
Thanks!
joanna it would be better if you emailed or msn-ed me. i’ve yet to post an entry on how to tackle the monash medical school interview! maybe i shd one day, given the enquires at this “About me” page!
Thanks for your input “unemployed”. But your statement:
“If you had ever screwed up in your academic history or are not in the top 5% of your class consistently, YOU WON’T even get to “see the door” to the medical faculty unless you have deep pockets (even then, this is not always successful). These are harsh facts about *trying* to get into medical school.”
seems rather discouraging to the medical sch applicant. While it is important that the medical faculty in each university sees a proven track record and potential for academic excellence, (which is an important baseline), they have started and are prepared to consider other equally important traits. The UK GMC has stated some of this in their “Tomorrow’s doctors” publication. http://www.gmc-uk.org/education/undergraduate/tomorrows_doctors.asp
On a more personal level, i have seen numerous examples of students who have taken alternate pathways to medical school. These include colleges in Melbourne (no need for JC, one yr course only!), and graduate medicine of course.
Graduate medicine is another topic on its own, but the applicants are surely more qualified and are generally firmer in their conviction to study medicine, having gone through much more, academically, and in life experiences/
Hi Jeffrey.
this is an interesting blog page! I’m a doctor myself, graduated from Melbourne Medical School a few years back. It’s interesting to read about the experiences of everyone who posts. Just wanted to give you the other side of the coin. I guess I was one of those students who thought medicine was interesting and fascinating but wasn’t quite sure if I really wanted to be a “doctor”! Well after 3 years in the job, I’ve decided to quit on it! Yup, I’ve done the dirty and given it up. For me, after a few years in the job, and experiencing all the bad points about the profession I no longer want to commit to a lifetime of “taking care of people”. This may make me sound pretty heartless, but trust me buddy, it will drain you, wholly and then expect more. please don’t think I’m dissing doctors or medicine. It’s just my personal choice and I feel happier and more optimistic about the future than for the last four years!!!
wow chris! i must admit it takes a lot of courage to break free from the system and finally listen to your heart and do what you want.
if you don’t mind me asking, the question leads on… what are you going to do now with a MBBS and BSc(Hons)? Research sounds like a very viable option. You could pursue a PhD in an area you’re interested in. I heard melbourne uni medical students have at least 2 to 3 articles in peer-reviewed journals to their names! How cool is that. We aren’t that privileged in Monash, although we could choose to undertake the intercalated BSc.
What are your views, and plans for the future?
Hi Jeff,
My statement only seems discouraging mainly because the facts I know are not all that promising. The simple truth is : Getting into Medicine is an extremely calculated strategem bolstered by herculean efforts for 99.9% of folks. International students don’t realise that for us locals, the social-engineering behind Med Sch admission standards have seriously undermined high-achieving Aussie-Asian selection & intake. Considering that most intl students couldn’t get a place into their home med schools based on their grades, for us minorities in the West, it’s just that much harder as non-subjective benchmarks like academic achievements are downplayed in favour of easily exploitable, subjective qualities. Intl & fee paying students are subject to far less barriers because there are scant few able to fork out AU$200K+ in fees for the MBBS. The truth of the matter is, med sch admissions’re a highly sensitive topic in Western countries for “good” reasons. As an example, in Australia, higher education is “socialised”. Local students pay a small fraction of the costs with tax payer dollars subsidising the rest. That’s why “selection interviews” came about as there was substantial, tacit support for restricting entry of non-majority races to elite & highly prized courses.
Graduate medicine is another topic on its own, but the applicants are surely more qualified and are generally firmer in their conviction to study medicine, having gone through much more, academically, and in life experiences
Graduate medicine is just as tough to get in because on top of having to be scholastically proven & doing a bitch of an entry test called GAMSAT, again, subjective barriers like interviews are utilised to arbitrarily filter out applicants.
“Conviction” - it’s all a matter of personal perspective & a private affair of the applicant. It’s unconscionable that one’s life-decisions have to be haphazardly scrutinised & questioned in a 30-45 min med sch interview by complete strangers who then decide whether they want you out the door. This is a polarising system that is unfairly engineered to work for some & fatally fail for many others, with no reprieve.
there is some good discussion going on here! i’m glad! thanks to all who have given their comments so far, especially “unemployed”, please reveal your name if u are comfortable as i feel a little uncomfortable calling someone by their job status.
only if you are willing, of course.
anyway, i am not sure about your claims about universities “restricting entry of non-majority races to elite & highly prized courses.” Maybe i have a micro view of things only. As much as i can see in Monash University, especially in my MBBS course, we have about 200 australian students (some of which are of Indigenous backgrounds, and about 20-25 of them are Australian born Asians, from a variety of states) We then have about 100 or so international students (a huge number compared to the 10 - 15 quota in the UK medical schools). We have a huge group from Malaysia, most of whom are under scholarships from MARA or JPA. Then we have about 10 Botswanian students on scholarship as well. They are also an interesting bunch of friends. Next we have 20-25 Singaporeans, talkative and all of whom are NUS medical school rejects. (
(To me, it is a great mixture of nationalities and races. Just among the Aussies, we already have such a culturally diverse group. I suspect this is cos of the open immigration policies that has led to an influx of migrants. A haematology registrar was telling us now its not enough nowadays to guess a patient’s Mediterranean or South Asian ethnicity based on surname, because of the rich cultural diversity. (These groups tend to have a higher incidence of thalaessemia - a blood clotting genetic defect)
The selection process for medical school will never be fair. However, efforts are made to change this all the time. The medical selection process is also a lot dependent on the faculty. If one’s life decision cannot be described in 30min, i wonder how long you need to do so. If you can suggest a better way, do voice it out and also let all the medical schools in the world benefit from your ideas.
For me, i believe that with a baseline academic requirement that is met (before even granting an applicant an interview), other important stuff can then be explored, for example, background and again conviction.
The faculty can find out from the applicant that he/she has spent 6 months doing volunteer work, or attachment to a hospital to gain insight from the interview. This is opposed to knowing it from an essay (who can’t write and who can vouch that its true?). They can then further question the applicant on lessons learnt and how it has changed his/her beliefs or approaches to medicine. Wouldn’t this be a rather good interview question?
In fact, it is so good that almost every medical interview asks something similar - prior exposure to medicine, and/or what you have done to gain insight? This distinguishes those who just want to “help people” from those who have taken a pro-active approach to determining one’s life career choice.
Mr Jeffrey,
You have an interesting group of people commenting here huh. Congrats on that. ‘unemployed’ seems disgruntled about the medical school selection criteria, with good reason. Oh btw, I DID screw up my academic life one time before - and I’m NOT the only one. But here I am, in medical school. I won’t say I’m brainless, cos that would be an anatomical lie, but I definitely am not as gifted as some of the other medical students around.
He also speaks of connections. There’s this lad I know, his dad was the chairman of Asia-Pacific Anaesthesiology Society (or whatever name that goes by); his mum was a senior consultant gastroenterologist - both board accredited specialists with high standing amongst their colleagues. This lad got 4As in his A levels but was still not even granted an interview to the National University of Singapore, despite letters written to the administration (who are doctors) by his parents.
If you want to argue that the ‘interview’ takes spots away from the locals to maintain the racial balance, you have to explain the lack of the ‘interview’ by the University of Melbourne. It seems to me that they do not take personal qualities as an important trait in selecting a potential doctor. Would you like your doctor being a genius that has no social skill, picks his nose and never shaves - remember to look for MBBS (Melbourne) on his suffix then.
There is a common saying that ‘90% of the doctor you are, you already are before stepping into Medical School’. So yes, I think it’s reasonable to determine if your 90% worth stacks up against other people in a 30min interview.
Graduate medicine is a long tedious pathway to take. But it also boasts the most mature applicants and graduates with a wide range of skills and knowledge. You should consider this path as I’m sure it will be looked at when you apply for a traineeship in a specialist college or even a consultancy in the future.
Medicine does not stop on the day you sit your MBBS exams. There’s still specialty training, GP training and CME. Medical school is a stepping stone to these, so don’t think so short term. GAMSAT is but ONE test you have to sit, there will be MANY MANY more if you get in. As Confuscious (i think) said, ‘A thousand mile journey begins with a single step’.
Unemployed, before you whinge about the racial ‘quotas’ in Australia - take a look at MALAYSIA. I do not mean to offend anyone, but to lay the facts before all. There have been reports that Chinese students with 7As could not get a place in university. If your government or administration seeks to ‘uphold the rights’ of the native/majority people, you just have to deal with it - do political science and bag these morons in your PhD thesis.
And lastly, don’t be so sure you want to do medicine. Someone here has already quit the profession - despite the time and effort put into it. It’s a pain in the ass I tell you, but the reward will come later
i hope…
If one’s life decision cannot be described in 30min, i wonder how long you need to do so. If you can suggest a better way, do voice it out and also let all the medical schools in the world benefit from your ideas.
The description of one’s life decision to do medicine is not the problem. It only becomes a problem when some stranger who doesn’t know you from jack, is placed in a powerful position to judge & then actually “grade” your reasons & responses. If that’s not irksome, then nothing is. Such unwarranted processes are a blatant violation of human rights & equal opportunity, honestly speaking. In a meritocracy, having a fair & even playing field, means encouraging all participants to do their best at non-subjective assessments, rather than depressing the strengths of others (marginalising academic achievements) to the lowest-common denominator for benefits that, to-date, still cannot be proven, scientifically.
The truth is, Medical School interviews are a failed policy of anti-intellectual populism. Considering that there are high-stakes involved, subjective assessments here are too highly exploitable by racial & social politics of the day. Yet, the proponents in defending this regime of discrimination, are making unjustified & unscientific claims in personality assessments that even trained psychiatrists & criminal psychologists can’t do, much less in 30-45 mins & using folks recruited from the general public. If you read the MJA & AustralianDoctor, you’d see that even the medical profession is increasingly questioning the validity & applicability of these forms of subjective assessments for med school selection. The claims that interviews ensure would-be med students would make “good” doctors are neither provable nor replicable. Thus, the use of interviews to weed out med school applicants is nothing but a social-engineering experiment to maintain status quo in a power profession at a high price… and the price is great, I assure you, as the casualties & collaterals of this little social experiment are far-reaching. As an example, with the failure of many top Asian students to get into medicine here in Australia, many ended up relegated to lower-ranked health professions such as Pharmacy & Optometry. Needless to say, the entry scores for these courses have skyrocketed due to the artificially increased demand. Check VTAC to see for yourself. (1994 - 2007). The question then is, what about the folks who earnestly wanted to study those courses & are now outcompeted by the high-ranking medical-school rejects taking their places not because they really wanted to but as “fall-backs”?
Bring back non-subjective assessments any day.
slicenincise said:
Unemployed, before you whinge about the racial ‘quotas’ in Australia - take a look at MALAYSIA. I do not mean to offend anyone, but to lay the facts before all.
Lets compare apples with apples. Western societies are the ones that constantly trumpet their democratic, egalitarian processes, respect for human rights & “equal” opportunities. Naturally, they’d do well to ensure that their societies live up to these claims. It’s extremely sad to see folks like yourself, having to resort to comparisons with less “socially-developed” countries in order to defend what is really a flawed system that contravenes your espoused social values.
Gleaning from your counter argument, it’s apparent that you advocate reverse-affirmative action. After all, these subjective selection processes were quite obviously designed with the presupposition that white students typically don’t have the gumption, discipline & maybe brain power to compete against the harder working minorities in a standardised, non-subjective assessment without some form of nepotism & political patronism.
I mean, political patronage. Of course, I don’t offend you too.
bring back non-subjective assessments?
like what? pls describe.
tell me how better to assess an applicant other than thr an interview, which is a set of probing questions to dig and find out more.
don’t job interviews do exactly that too? Investment banks use 20 rounds of interviews to make sure they get nothing but the very best. Now, is that subjective? I seriously don’t know, having not gone through a serious job interview b4, but i reckon you have.
Well, this world is never ideal. Practical issues in med sch selection have to be considered. Interviewers are not “people pulled from the general public” as u claim. Interviewers are members of the medical faculty (at least associate professors, mind you, with PhDs) who have been trained to be an interviewer by professional agencies. Now, if that’s not good enough, seriously, tell me what you mean by, non-subjective assessment. teach us, so we might let our med fac know, so as to better select our future doctors.
(btw, melbourne uni don’t grant interviews at all. just get 4As, and a GP grade of A, you’re in. Either than or 99th percentile in VCE. no CV, no nothing. just pure academic records. perhaps they have the confidence to nurture their academically bright students into competent yet compassionate doctors?)
as with any form of references you use, it is no use saying “MJA says this”. try that for an academic essay, you’re bound to get marks deducted for that.
so show the audience the proof, keep in mind, that this should not escalate into an argument, but continue to be educational in nature for to-be applicants.
for an interview, it is necessary for both parties not to have known each other beforehand. hence they SHOULD be complete strangers because then it would minimize any bias.
i have heard from my aussie classmates that the interviewers tell them NOT to announce that their parents are doctors.
a future doctor should be vocal and eloquent enough to share with a panel of interviewers his/her desire to study medicine, why, other considerations, talk a little more about his/her own background, etc……
at monash, they ask you to de-technicalise a scientific term or phrase. for example, saturated fats. or carbon cycle. or krebs cycle. this is to determine if you are able to, with your current scientific knowledge, make terms simple and easy to understand for a layperson. now this is not subjective. this is objective because a doctor has to be able to do that to communicate effectively with patients. [med applicants take note!]
they also have a “comprehension” passage for you to read. they will then ask several questions to check your comprehension of concepts and issues stated within. its rather fun! i got a passage on breast screening promotion, and the first question (which kind of stunned me) was why do u think women don’t go for breast screening regularly. and a later question (rather memorable) was if you were a health minister, what would you do to promote breast screening.
now, a person with “conviction” to study medicine would have read up on several important health issues. or at least know a little bit. you can’t just say, i feel like studying medicine. or .. i want to help people. then that’s it. yes, its subjective, but i feel that’s the best the med fac can think of for now. besides, i know that NUS med fac scrutinizes the “want to help people” question. they will go on to ask, “why not be a social worker?” you will reply, and they will say “why not be a nurse? they help people too in a clinical environment?” while an interview can be prepared, (standard replies to common questions), i guess it is those who have prepared for it (And in the preparation process, given more thought to considering a career in medicine), that deserves the medical place more than others.
suggestions, unemployed man?
This argument has drifted in focus from the original. You have a good point! I should compare apples with apples. As should medical schools’ admissions offices compare with you with another candidate.
In the eyes of the interviewer, you are both apples. What he is looking for, is a riper, sweeter apple - in context, a more ’suitable’ candidate for the MBBS course. However, he can only see what the apple presents to him: a shiny gleam or a dull black, turgid body with a good sound on percussion or a flaccid soft ‘unchrunchy’ sounding apple.
It is true that this is a flawed system as many times, the apple might look good but is really rotten - I can say that because many people in medical school seriously lack a sense of professional behavior. However, as with ANY OTHER TEST, you do NOT hide you knowledge and potential - you display it proudly for your examiners to give you marks.
With a man of your eloquence, I see no reason why you are unable to perform well in an interview. Of course unless speaking to unfamiliar people fazes you; in which case, you probably aren’t the man for the job.
In the interviewer’s eyes, you are both apples. Unfortunately, you didn’t become the apple of his eye.
don’t job interviews do exactly that too? Investment banks use 20 rounds of interviews to make sure they get nothing but the very best. Now, is that subjective? I seriously don’t know, having not gone through a serious job interview b4, but i reckon you have.
Non-subjective = less prone to varied interpretations. E.g. standardised tests, Year 12 scores, etc.
Firstly, a med.sch interview is not a job-interview and there is, after *10 years* of this shenanigan here, zero evidence that selection interviews benefit anybody by adopting a “job-interview” like structure. Job interviews ensure that prospective applicants fit the corporate culture & possess the right skills to enhance the core business. Med sch. interviews make plenty of unsupported presumptions on the young would-be med student’s “innate” ability to become “good” doctors - whatever those mean. Kind of like fortune-telling & star-gazing. Given that there was never any major problem with using purely academic achievements & hardwork to matriculate into med sch in the past, these changes are a non-solution to a non-problem, really. Please do yourself a favour & read the MJA & Australian Doctor Editorials more often (No references, I’m too lazy to login & I’m not seeking converts here). There’s increasing dissatisfaction in the current process with good reason. In fact, many of the good, long-practicing doctors themselves have admitted that, with the current seemingly arbitrary admission processes, most would have been prevented from studying medicine. Whatever happened to rewards through hardwork? That should be the question.
Interviewers are not “people pulled from the general public” as u claim. Interviewers are members of the medical faculty (at least associate professors, mind you, with PhDs) who have been trained to be an interviewer by professional agencies.
You make it sound like it’s all true - which it’s not. Zero point for bad generalisation. The med schs DO recruit from the general public. UWA, GU & even Adelaide Uni do that. Their medical websites openly advertise for interested parties to sign up. And several video-watching sessions & some role-playing constitute “training”. On the whole, med sch interviews sound good in theory but are a flawed practice. Again, it’s part of a “solution” for a problem that is, at best, hypothetical - in an “encouraging the dumbing-down of entry standards” to make way for smooth-talking sociopaths kind of way.
teach us, so we might let our med fac know, so as to better select our future doctors.
“teach us”? If wrongful act is condoned, no amount of window-dressing makes it right. Do you have a saviour complex? Why are we “better selecting” doctors anyway? Care to give me evidence suggesting that previous methods are producing extremely bad doctors? That’s the insinuation I’m getting from apologists for this extreme overhaul that clearly takes a dump on scholastic achievements.
Jeff, this debate’s getting pointless. Clearly, you’re partyline-toter by defending a system you hardly know. Your myopia is not surprising - you’re an International student. International students are not as affected by the interviews as we HECS-seeking local Aussie-Asians are.
And should I expect objective arguments from those who’d clearly benefited from this flawed-system? Of course not! slicenincise, you’d do more good if you kept your mouth shut to thank your luck with a few sobre realisations about your position instead of defending the morally indefensible. It’s a fact that the med sch admission for most folks like yourself, came about because someone academically sounder & industrious than yourself, was robbed of the chance to study medicine by the subjective “graces” of an arbitrarily flawed system that devalues hardwork for playacting, superficial morality & political glibness at “interviews”. Sorry to say this but you’re an (*) and rightfully so.
Good news: Joining UniMelb & UTAS, UQ will be removing the interview component of med sch admission. There’re talks of removing interviews from USyd & even Newcastle!
UniMelb, UQ, USyd… hmmm aren’t those all offering only POST-GRAD medicine? Congratulations mate, you’re going to post-grad med course, which is very well esteemed. Perhaps it’s more suited to ‘academically sounder & industrious’ individuals like yourself.
Maybe when you’re in medical school, you’ll realise that studying is far from the only thing that’s important. FAR FAR FAR from it.
Hi.
I read with interest the discussions put forth here about med sch interviews, and after all i have read, i cannot help but be frank about this.
Unemployed man, it sounds to me you are nothing but a sore loser who did not make it to med school and blame it all on socialization or whatever argument you try to put forth. Accept it that you simply weren’t good enough then.
Now that you are in, i think what sliceandincise said is true. you’ll indeed realise that studying the sciences of medicine and getting the grades are not the only important things, certainly not the most important in becoming a doctor.
As a newbie to medicine, u will slowly but slowly learn that.
good luck, becos i sense that you are going to need it.
Unemployed man, from your posts it appears you are holding a lot of resentment towards a system which rejected you. But as far as I can tell, for someone who claims they are determined to pursue medicine as a career why didn’t you as the rest of us who got in did?
I’m an Australian CSP student and it may shock you to hear but I’m Vietnamese. As are many of my friends who are studying Medicine in Universities around Australia, not to mention the Egyptians, Chinese, Sri Lankans and Indians. What you may also find shocking is that I have many anglo-Australian friends who DIDN’T get into Medicine.
I’m sure some of the current Medical Students may have thought UMAT/Interview selection was aimed at removing Australian students of ethnic background but they managed to get in anyway. Because instead of wasting our time complaining about the system we focused on our goal of entering Medical School. Those of us who got in on the first go prepared for UMAT and practised for the Interview. Those who didn’t get in and truly are determined are either defering study to try again or studying those other courses you mentioned, which I believe you unfairly see as being reserved for Med School rejects, such as Pharmacy and Optometry and trying to transfer into Medicine.
Stop complaining about how oppressed you feel and get on with you life. If you want to study Medicine then do it.
Oh and whilst your flogging the social injustice of Medical Schools against minorities I’m also female.
Hi, I see that the debate is getting very interesting. Personally, I feel that using interviews, although subjective, is better than simply using results to decide entry into medical school. I mean, someone with excellent grades does not necessarily mean that he or she has the passion for medicine and has the compassion and the heart to be a good doctor. True, it might be hard to judge a person’s character and true passion from a 30 minute interview, but at least the interviewers will be able to assess the applicant on how much he knows about the field of medicine (as one really passionate about medicine would read up more about it); they should get an idea of the applicant’s hobbies and activitites that he does, community service and so on. The interviewers would also be able to judge how the applicant interacts with others, whether he is able to speak confidently and so on. And these are important characteristics for a doctor. I do not want to deny that at every interview there’s an element of luck and whether the interviewer “likes your face” that sort of thing. But won’t it be harder to compare passion using pure results alone?
I feel that if one really, seriously wants to become a doctor, he will be one. If undergraduate medicine is unsuccessful, try postgrad. If you’re unsuccessful, you can still try until u succeed. The whole world is your oyster. Yes, but cost is one important factor to consider too.
For me, I was also rejected by one medical school. True, I felt rotten and utterfly dejected. But i feel there’s no point complaining about the system, perhaps there are just people better than me who deserve to get in. It really makes me bitter when i see people who never really wanted medicine but just applied as an alternative who got into that medical school, people who did not show any interest in medicine. HOw they got through the interview i dunno, but perhaps they can speak well and impress the interviewers. For me, I know that medicine is my life. I did not give up, but continued trying. Now im accepted into another medical school.
Being a Catholic, i believe that GOD if it’s His will that you will be a doctor, you will be a doctor. Everything happens for a reason. Perhaps, not getting in medical school is a blessing in disguise, perhaps this is just a test for you to see how firm you are in your decision to study medicine. THere are people who are rejected from medical school but end up doing very well in life too, and they never regretted not becoming a doctor. YOu never know. Whatever it is, don’t dwell on this and start finding faults. Move on. Be positive. Continue striving to study medicine if that is your dream. YOu will be able to do it one day.
well i hope that this discussion wouldnt get any more sour. paul tts not v nice. anyway, i hope that prospective medical students learn something here as u prepare for ur own medical interviews.
whether pple think its important or not, it is going to be there so prepare well cos tts indicative of ur interest in med if u care enough abt it. hopefully ur preparation for interview will strengthen ur interest in medicine.
all e best, everyone.
Hi Jeff,
I was wondering what ISAT score is required to be granted an interview @ Monash.. I just got my result back, and it wasn’t great.. it’ll be nice if you can give me an idea!
I think the Unemployed Man thinks hes’ a pretty smart guy..
I failed my aptitude test for gaining entrance to med school in one city. Then went to Melbourne based purely on marks. Of all the “super smart” guys there with perfect TER scores, they all did pretty well on paper. Some of them didn’t have a clue what was going on around them but so be it. I just don’t think you need to be really smart to be a doctor. I mean, it is a lot of rote learning and pattern recognition. It’s just such a desired profession so standards of admission are so high. As for social engineering and discrimination against local Asians. That may be true to some extent. I think somewhere in an Australian Club, some Anglos got together and decided there were too many Asian doctors.
whoa.. it’s been a while since i last checked in here. looks like i’m getting a bit of general-knowledged-challenged here. i dont have an opinion!
anyway jeffrey, thanks a lot on your help. i was offered a place in monash!! thanks! but i’ve actually replied to RSCI Dublin first so hv no choice but to decline monash. however, i really want to extend my gratitude for your help the other day! thanks! thanks! thanks! oh and i really admire your passion! i hope to be that passionate someday. Wish you all the best in life!
you’re welcome. all the best fatin.
Hi jeffrey,
I’m currently studying monash university foundation year and I intend to study medicine after my foundation studies. I just got my ISAT results but I’m not quite sure what are the scores required to get an interview. Could you enlighten me on the minimum score required for Critical and Quantitative Reasoning?
Thanks for the reply. I guess I just have to wait and see if i got the interview.
Hi Jeffrey
I’m a Singaporean guy doing my NS now. I took my ISATs, went for the interview (my “comprehension” passage was on prostate cancer) and I managed to get a place in Monash Medicine (for 2008)! The thing is… I also got an offer from UniMelb for Medicine as well. I can’t really decide at this point which is better. Do you have any advice? BTW, you were from VJC?
Hello! I am a fellow Singaporean, going to Monash in 2008, class of 2012. I’d just like to prepare myself! Do you know if there are any differences between NUS and Monash in terms of the medical course? I’ve read up about the course structure but besides the curriculum are there any significant advantages/disadvantages?
Thanks
Oh yeah my friend also recommended I go Ebenezer Church. How’s it there? Is it near campus?
hi pq ill reply u via email.
hi jeff,
i’m starting monash med 2008 as well, actually just got back from a recce trip there and met couple of the year ones along with aunty may and nat (4th year) from ebenezer. in fact, lester (year 1) recommended i go try and find all the singaporeans starting next year.
would you have any contacts of those starting in 08?
ravion and pq, if you see this do drop me an email at jon.lai.yexian@gmail.com. i’m finishing up ns as well along with another guy who’ll be doing med at monash as well.
jon.
i would like to direct all prospective year1s to these 2 websites:
http://monashmed2010.wordpress.com/
http://meddies2007.wordpress.com/
do have a read and feel free to post comments, esp the 2nd one: meddies2007, which is less dead.
the info existing on both are still good to read tho’.
hi Jeffrey,
i applied for both monash and melb med school. ive been accepted into monash med, but no reply from unimelb yet. well my main concern between the two unis is the compulsory research module that unimelb has but it is not necessary for those in monash to do. they say that ppl with the BSc usu make better doctors. is this true?
there’s this hype about integrating research into clinical medicine gg on in singapore and ard the world. so now i think they prefer docs with research skills? im not sure. shld i get accepted into unimelb, which shld i choose?
i dont have a special liking for research, but i wouldn mind doing a little research in the future shld there be time for that. im more into clincal medicine.
thanks so much for ur opinion (:
with monash, u get an option of doing bmedsci at end of yr 2, 3, 4 or 5. with melbourne, u do a compulsory bmedsci at the end of 2.5 years of pre clinical, then intermit with 1 yr bmedsci, then 2.5 years of clinical. while u get 3 years of clinical in monash.
yeah i understand that. from your constant contacts with the medical faculty and related stuff, will monash grads be at a disadvantage as compared to unimelb? most monash grads dont have research modules. i hear that sometimes it might be recommended to have research in ur cv as an extra edge compared to other medical students, so that one can get competitive placements like surgery?
will it really benefit the student? 6 yrs seem longer than 5 even tho it’s only a difference of 1 yr. as i alr mentioned, i wouldn mind doing research, but it isn something that i’d slog to pursue. i see myself pursuing clinical medicine as a career.
is there anyone, doctors/specialists/lecturers/students who i can talk to for advice? thanks so much(:
ailyne
Hey Jeffrey
I’m an interstate yr 12 student applying for international monash med. I’ve got my ISAT results back and I was wondering whether you knew the minimum needed for an interview. I know that people have asked u before but i can’t see your reply. It doesn’t have to be definite - even if u knew someone who got an isat score that got him/her into med would be great.
Cho
i am not sure of a minimum. sorry. the faculty takes into account a variety of factors as on their prospective students website and how each component factor into the total interview score, i am not sure.
Hi doc, bro and fellow TOC writer
Thanks for the comments on my blog =)
God bless!
Hi Jeff, I always had an interest in pus - the condition how it occurs and how it’s treated. Thanks for posting this article. Interesting read.
Berno B.Computing (Hons), 2004, Monash
http://bernardoh.wordpress.com / bernard dot oh -at- gmail
I visit Melbourne regularly, maybe next time I’m in Clayton, I will drop you a note and meet for coffee.
Hi Jeffrey,
I’m a current year 12 VCE student, and even though I’ve got an exam in a few days time the looming propect of my Monash interview seems to be more unsettling than anything else. understanding that it’s worth quite a bit, mine’s on the 28th of November so it’s pretty soon, and I was just wondering how much I will be able to elaborate on my answers.
It’s just when I consider what I’d like to say for the generic questions (Why do you want to become a doctor? etc.) It all soon comes back to my childhood experiences, and how I perceive them today. Will I be able to like “set up a framework” to refer back to when answering some of my questions? As in, after describing how I grew up, could I go back on some bits that are relevant? Lol, basically in all my lovely convolution, what I’m basically asking is how much can I elaborate and describe when answering before they proceed to cut me off? =] Sorry if it took a while to get to the point *is stressed*
I just want to stand out if you know what I mean. I mean, evidently for you it was the whole army thing (you blow me away by the way XD that must’ve been quite the life I’d imagine). I really want to enjoy myself during the interview, do you recommend going off on little tangents that my expose a bit about my personality or answering the question to the tea?
Anyway, I’ll try not to overload your sense with my incessant stressing =p Your blog is a wonderful insight into what it means to be a medical student. Thank-you for the motivation Jeffrey (if I may continue calling you so) and please keep up the good work!
Regards.
just so all the prospective students don’t keep emailing me when u haven’t read this, just read ALL the comments up above, u might realise some people obviously don’t agree with the whole idea of an interview but u’re still preparing for it anyway, so good on ya!
now, before you prepare, make sure YOU REALLY WANT TO DO MED. (Now of course this is a little difficult considering you are only say, 17, 18 years old? What are you to decide on a life long career choice? Admit that shortcoming, then things might get easier)
Next, talk to people. Not me, not anymore. Muhaha. Talk to some senior about med. Talk to current medical students. Surf medical school forums, like medschoolguide.co.uk, or studentdoctors.net or sth. find out how they got in, why they got in, etc.
The interviewers actually really want to know why you want to do med. Now this will involve painful questions at times. Anyone can say “i want to help people”. Now they might shoot you down and ask “why not be a social worker?” Who in fact help more people than anything else; they’re just a fantastic bunch of people i must say.
Then, u might say “i wanna help people in a medical or healthcare context…” “Why not be a nurse, or physiotherapist?”
Now, your answer will be your answer. So don’t look for mine here.
Of course, try to market yourself and show them how your experiences thus far make you (or at least you think make you) a suitable candidate for medical school life.
Cos’ once you’re in, you’re in for life. And no one wants you to waste tax payers’ money training you for a couple of years, and then u quit just cos u found med wasn’t for you.
(i already know of some in my course who have, but good on em for realizing it early and making a bold move to do what is against the stream. its definitely better than becoming a bad doctor with poor patient skills, venting your personal frustration at life or job at the people who don’t deserve it - your patients.)
Dude, you should use this blog as your additional piece in your portfolio. I think it deserves 20/10. You’re like the goto guy for all these new student’s enquiries.
accidentally came to your blog after a google search, haven’t go really thorough about it, but found the comments above very interesting! Well i think seniors should really have such a place like your blog for us juniors to decide what we wanna do and what are the choices!
I’m a Malaysian, currently doing my SPM(equivalent to O levels), and my current plan is to do Medicine. I would like to ask that between gaining an admission or getting a scholarship, which is more important to be taken into consideration?
I know that to get an admission is highly competitive, as well as a medicine scholarship(as not many provide them), but can i say that if u are admitted into top universities, there will be no problem in getting scholarships or financial aid?
Hope to get some answers from your experiences.
Btw, thanks for providing such a whole lot of info that help a lot in your blog! It did make me change my mind to study in Aus instead!
Regards,
Coyin.
Hey guys I’ve got a bit of a pickle to deal with at the moment and I’m not sure if anyone here would be able to help me. For quite a long time, I’ve wanted to study medicine. At this point it’s hard to tell which formed a larger part in that choice: my parents desire for me to study medicine, or my genuine interest in it. Well come the end of 2006 (with pretty good TER on hand), I didn’t get any offers for med. Lousy section 2 UMAT. Only ended up getting one interview in Adelaide in which is didn’t show that I was any special than street corner guy.
So I ended up (a little ashamedly) conforming with the Asian parents’ dream of either medicine or dentistry by embarking on a toothy adventure to study dentistry at UQ. I kept my grades up and had another crack at it this year, but was revisited by the reaper residing in section 2 of the UMAT. So in the end I just convinced myself that dentistry was the way to go. I have seen many benefits of studying dentistry that I hadn’t even considered before.
Suddenly I get an offer to do med in Tasmania (hurrah! no interview at least) and now I’m confounded as to what I should do. I know being a Med forum, there will be strong bias to study Med. I’ve come across the same thing in a dent forum. I’ll just skip to one part of it my constant to-ing and fro-ing with my decision: the disadvantages of med. Maybe you guys can debunk of these and sway me one direction. I like using my hands and doing mechanical things and with med, I would like to later specialise in surgery (general surgery for now until i find an interest in something more specific). It takes a lot of time to study. I know you’ll be getting paid for the most part but it just seems daunting facing up to 15 years before finalising the specialisation. I’ve also read that a life of a surgeon require MANY hours and I’m not sure I’m ready for it. I would like time later to develop a family and raise some kids. It seems to me that Dentists do less hours and get paid more as well. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not that shallow. Medicine appears to me to also offer what many other professions can’t. The satisfaction that you are making a difference in the one lifetime you’ve got. This greatly appeals to me. Ahhh, here I am again, going backwards and forwards. Hope you guys can help.
Cheerio!
Hi jeff…i’m nishanth fromIndia doin 3rd year mbbs.came here from your profile at mybloglog.Your blog is great and of much help to those who are interested in /thinking abt doing medicine.
I am in the process of building a simple medical website.
mbbsBasic -for free medical resources
Feel free to visit and please give suggestions because it needs to be improved.
the site is best viewed in Mozilla firefox.
bbye.
http://www.google.com
http://www.yahoo.com
http://www.msn.com
Hey Jeffrey,
I hope you still remember me. About 6 months ago, I was enquiring about the Isat scores required for an interview at Monash. Thanks for the fast reply.
Just a few days ago, I’ve received an offer to study medicine at the University of Tasmania. I was completely elated as the competition for medicine is well-known for its intensity. I have accepted the offer and I am waiting for Monash to release me.( I studied Monash Fondation Year). So, I have finally on the path of achieving my dream and I’m thrilled. I’m a fellow Singaporean too, by the way. So, I want to thank everyone here for your invaluable advice and don’t dare give up!
P.S: gloooop, have you made up your mind whether you want to study medicine at Tasmania?
hi vincent, congrats! u shd choose monash instead, cos its only 5 years. tasmania is so secluded from everything else.
Hi jeff,
My name is Timothy and I was doing some research on medical schools and managed to come across ur blog. I must say its very interesting and intellectual and it really got me thinking about my future. Abit about myself: I graduated from VJC last year and I’m currently awaiting my A level results. I have keen interest in doing medicine and like many hopefuls, I do want to get a place in NUS despite being aware of the harsh realities of admission. I heard from a friend that last year’s intake comprised of 90% RJ students. what an elitist society mann.
Right now, I’m doing some volunteering at a hospital and God has also blessed me with attachments at 2 hospitals as well. I understand that portfolio plays a significant role in admission as i’m sure we’ve heard of non straight As students with nice portfolios getting into med sch whereas there are straight As students who dun. i was hoping to seek advice on how to make my portfolio more competitive and something that interviewers would be looking out for??
My next question would concern S-papers and for my batch, H3 subjects. How important are H3/S-papers in application for med school and would it pose any disadvantage to students who dun take them??
Thanks alot and God bless!
“think somewhere in an Australian Club, some Anglos got together and decided there were too many Asian doctors.”
Chris (and anonymous) - what actually happened was that both the medical profession and the general public got sick of (simplifying it) medical graduates who couldn’t communicate. While lots of these people were of non-Anglo-Celtic backgrounds, there were plenty of whites in this group as well. The net effect though was reduced numbers of Asians in undergrad medical schools, but this was not the goal.
The result of all this was a move away from pure academic achievement and the incorporation of ‘pro-social’/emotional intelligence/empathy testing in the selection process. While no system can be perfect, I believe this one is and will create more graduates patients actually want to see, delivering better medicine in Australia.
I’m doing grad med at an Australian university and the group represents pretty fully Australia’s ethnic diversity including Asians, Indians and everybody else who calls Australia home. What I see that’s different to the old undergrad course is a whole lot of people (many of Asian backgrounds) who can communicate, and have good emotional intelligence.
By no means is Australia a non-racist country, but it’s a damn site less racist than any other country I’ve seen, including Singapore. You also might do well to remember that Australian medical schools are not designed for Singaporeans who didn’t get in in their home country. The system here is designed to fit Australian cultural requirements, unashamedly. In my course, we are constantly reminded that Australia is not white anymore. Understanding, recognition and respect for all Australians, no matter where they came from originally is required.
ps. Australia is not America, or Singapore - ‘connections’ are pretty much useless for getting into medical courses in this country.
ps. one other rant: if you’re one of the people from an Asian background who only wants to do med because of parental expectations, money, or if you’ll happily do dentistry instead (while not liking it), suffice to say, yes the system is stacked against you because it’s designed to be.
Also, most parents in A