Comments on: Penile ablation and Gender Orientation http://jeffreyleow.wordpress.com/2008/01/28/penile-ablation-and-gender-orientation/ Vagus surgicalis: a med student wanders in the world of medicine & surgery Fri, 10 Jul 2009 07:05:35 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 By: Jeffrey http://jeffreyleow.wordpress.com/2008/01/28/penile-ablation-and-gender-orientation/#comment-14072 Jeffrey Fri, 01 Feb 2008 09:29:05 +0000 http://jeffreyleow.wordpress.com/?p=419#comment-14072 its called forrest gump suite by alan silvestri i think. its called forrest gump suite by alan silvestri i think.

]]> By: gail http://jeffreyleow.wordpress.com/2008/01/28/penile-ablation-and-gender-orientation/#comment-14067 gail Wed, 30 Jan 2008 17:09:47 +0000 http://jeffreyleow.wordpress.com/?p=419#comment-14067 hi jeff, what's the title of the soundtrack from Forrest Gump and who played it. i would really like to know. thanks! hi jeff,

what’s the title of the soundtrack from Forrest Gump and who played it. i would really like to know.

thanks!

]]> By: Jeffrey http://jeffreyleow.wordpress.com/2008/01/28/penile-ablation-and-gender-orientation/#comment-14061 Jeffrey Tue, 29 Jan 2008 13:37:30 +0000 http://jeffreyleow.wordpress.com/?p=419#comment-14061 yeap exactly the kind of comment i'm looking for. :) thanks for your input. you have your points, lets see what others think. yeap exactly the kind of comment i’m looking for. :) thanks for your input. you have your points, lets see what others think.

]]> By: Alison Cummins http://jeffreyleow.wordpress.com/2008/01/28/penile-ablation-and-gender-orientation/#comment-14060 Alison Cummins Tue, 29 Jan 2008 13:20:27 +0000 http://jeffreyleow.wordpress.com/?p=419#comment-14060 Um, I don't get your conclusion. The Bruce/Brenda story illustrates precisely that things like gender identity and orientation are NOT amenable to nurture. Bruce's in utero exposure to testosterone may have established a male gender identity for him, but he's the one who knows what his gender identity is. We know that his gender identity is male *because he tells us.* If someone else has a gender identity that doesn't match their genitals, we will know that *because they tell us.* Each child is born with a particular cocktail of in utero exposures and genetic predispositions. Bruce's story is not the only story there is. I have no idea why you think there are no shades of grey. Bruce may have had a black-and-white view of his own gender identity, but other people do experience shades of grey or unexpected patterns of white-and-black. Homosexuality (since you are conflating it with gender identity, which is actually quite different) exists in animals, by the way. It's particularly common among rams, who can cause great anguish for farmers trying to persuade them to breed. They're just not interested. Black and white. No can do. Thought experiment. You believe that 1) Gender identity is fixed. Girls are naturally girly, and nothing can change that. Boys are naturally macho, and nothing can change that. 2) Deviations from girls-are-girly boys-are-macho are caused by errors in child-rearing. Say one of your daughters is a tomboy. Some girls are. Even Money thought that Brenda was a perfectly normal tomboy. She doesn't like dresses and would rather play with Lego than dolls. She's physically active. She's smart and does well in school, but she complains that the other girls are dumb. Is this a problem to be cured by forced dress-wearing? Or is that just who your daughter is? Is it okay for your daughter to be a tomboy as long as she also grows up do date boys? Will dating boys prove that she was never really a tomboy, and that you were right to allow her to play with Lego? If she dates girls instead, will that prove that exposure to Lego and permission to wear jeans and play on the girls volleyball team permanently damaged her, and that she should have been forcibly confined? Or are you saying that tomboys are figments of my imagination, do not exist anywhere, never have existed, so my question doesn't make any sense? Um, I don’t get your conclusion. The Bruce/Brenda story illustrates precisely that things like gender identity and orientation are NOT amenable to nurture.

Bruce’s in utero exposure to testosterone may have established a male gender identity for him, but he’s the one who knows what his gender identity is. We know that his gender identity is male *because he tells us.* If someone else has a gender identity that doesn’t match their genitals, we will know that *because they tell us.* Each child is born with a particular cocktail of in utero exposures and genetic predispositions. Bruce’s story is not the only story there is.

I have no idea why you think there are no shades of grey. Bruce may have had a black-and-white view of his own gender identity, but other people do experience shades of grey or unexpected patterns of white-and-black.

Homosexuality (since you are conflating it with gender identity, which is actually quite different) exists in animals, by the way. It’s particularly common among rams, who can cause great anguish for farmers trying to persuade them to breed. They’re just not interested. Black and white. No can do.

Thought experiment. You believe that 1) Gender identity is fixed. Girls are naturally girly, and nothing can change that. Boys are naturally macho, and nothing can change that. 2) Deviations from girls-are-girly boys-are-macho are caused by errors in child-rearing.

Say one of your daughters is a tomboy. Some girls are. Even Money thought that Brenda was a perfectly normal tomboy. She doesn’t like dresses and would rather play with Lego than dolls. She’s physically active. She’s smart and does well in school, but she complains that the other girls are dumb.

Is this a problem to be cured by forced dress-wearing? Or is that just who your daughter is? Is it okay for your daughter to be a tomboy as long as she also grows up do date boys? Will dating boys prove that she was never really a tomboy, and that you were right to allow her to play with Lego? If she dates girls instead, will that prove that exposure to Lego and permission to wear jeans and play on the girls volleyball team permanently damaged her, and that she should have been forcibly confined?

Or are you saying that tomboys are figments of my imagination, do not exist anywhere, never have existed, so my question doesn’t make any sense?

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